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Author Topic: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended  (Read 724841 times)

vadi92

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #420 on: April 04, 2021, 07:57:19 am »

The problem with public right now is that it's make the picture show up in training even if its non-sexual so we pretty much take out the "public" tag from it so its only show up where we want it. For example like what Leortha said if we only want it to show up at the beach then we only tags those with the beach tag no public tag excluded.
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #421 on: April 04, 2021, 12:47:29 pm »

Then, why is it necessary to remove the public tag for profile images?
Because a lot of 'nature' and 'beach' pictures are not necessarily public, in neither the 'hard' nor 'soft' sense?

What's bad about knowing if a profile image is in a public place?
What's so good about it? It's not particularly bad IMO, but it clutters up tagging for no real benefit I can see. If Goldo needs an umbrella tag, he can auto-add this within the game just as well. You're halfway to saying 'public' needs to be a main tag, now. :P

Right now, this is the definition of "public":

"She is in a public place or being watched by onlookers."
...
You're kinda degrading it into an exhibitionism tag.
And originally, this description was meant to be for a fixation tag, and the sex act was assumed, kinda like 'naked' is assumed for sex. It's been repurposed into two different tags now, i.e. you've promoted it from an 'exhibitionism tag' to something else. Not without reason, of course, but the above argument sounds a bit like "I can change it, you can't change it back, hah!".
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vadi92

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #422 on: April 04, 2021, 07:09:32 pm »

On a side note you should change the definition for "date" too.

Right now this is the definition for it: Shows the girl being out on a date with someone else. The person
can be implied, if the girl is looking 'out of the computer screen'. If it is another woman, add lesbian.

Tagging pic's with multiple girls on it with "lesbian" make the pic's show up now where it shouldnt.
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #423 on: April 05, 2021, 05:45:04 am »

Jman, in our many discussions I've learned to be wary when you imply some general knowledge, which has turned out as your personal opinion more than once. This time, you even only say that the tag was meant in some way.

I just checked, and before I started working on the Tagging Tool, "public" was in a group with: lesbian, dirty, wet, dom, sub.
There's multiple tags among those I might put on a fitting profile image, especially wet, dom, and probably sub.


Next, you're mutilating my quote on purpose to construct a totally different meaning. Here's what I actually said:

Quote from: Chris12
Right now, this is the definition of "public":

"She is in a public place or being watched by onlookers."

Just how would you change the definition of "public"? You're kinda degrading it into an exhibitionism tag. Or at least, I think that's what you want?

So if you don't cut out that one sentence on purpose, what I'm saying isn't "I can change it, you can't change it back, hah!" - that's what you're putting in my mouth. I actually was asking for your honest opinion instead of some rhetoric traps.


Next, I think we have different views regarding what umbrella tags are for. From my perspective, 'public' is similar to 'toy' - it's probably impossible to come up with a complete list for either. The toy tag isn't just there to auto-add for dildo, vibrator and plug, that would be pretty pointless. It's there to cover all kinds of other toys. For example, a week ago there was this image with a kinda handjob with a brush. ;)

I think for 'public' that's even more relevant than for toy. There's MANY images taking place somewhere that's not clearly beach, town, nature. There's even ambiguous images that could be in any of those places in a pinch, with only an ambiguous or sky background being shown.


Anyway, I think we discussed exactly this a month ago. Jman, you even provided data, and your conclusion was the same as mine and Neronero's - that you put a sexual tag on a public image when it's meant for exhibitionism:

To continue with Chris's program:

I found about 20 pictures tagged just 'public' among my 3300+ 'public' images. (I have quite a few duplicate packs, so I estimated, the 'real' count was 33.) Almost all of them should have been 'naked public' instead.

More details:

Girl packs: 700+
Total images: ~125k
Total public images: 3300+

public + naked 1800+
public + service ~550
public + sex 900+
public + anal~180
public + fetish~350
public + bisexual~210
public + group~320
public -(above sex act tags) + fixation(s)~150*
just public33
public + all the rest~200

* Including things like 'cosplay', 'wet' and 'strip'. In fact, I think the first two cover most of these pictures.

I largely concur with this:
Main takeaway is that mostly taggers have understood that public must be combined with tags of sexual acts if there are any.


Anyway, as long as you have sexual public images, a "profile public" image will NOT show up during sexual training. I assume pretty much any girl pack will have at least a handful of those. And if some pack really does not, a sexy profile image is actually a good choice for a filler image. I even provided a code snippet that adds an additional naked step to get_fix_pic(), which was not all that difficult.

Conclusion for all taggers: You can remove the public tag from profile images if you want, but it's pretty much pointless. More important is to put proper sexual tags on exhibitionism images. Which, if we can trust Jman's data, is true for the vast majority of all girlpacks and taggers.


P.S. Lesbian / Date is from a time before Goldo added female customers. I haven't checked how female customers work. I imagine it just slaps a "lesbian" on all images searches? If that's the case, it should find "lesbian + sexact" over "date lesbian", since the sexact is a mandatory part of the search.
I admit there's somewhat of a conflict of principle here, though. Goldo, is this causing trouble for you?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 05:54:13 am by Chris12 »
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #424 on: April 05, 2021, 06:31:59 am »

Jman, in our many discussions I've learned to be wary when you imply some general knowledge, which has turned out as your personal opinion more than once.
Sure, but it's reasoned opinion, not something I just invent for the sake of it.

This time, you even only say that the tag was meant in some way.
Because that's the impression I got from Goldo's posts (and the position of the tag among other fixation tags):
It's pretty clear to me that 'public acts' refers to an exhibitionist fetish
The situation's changed since then, but are you seriously saying that Goldo wanted a dual-purpose 'public' tag? ???

I just checked, and before I started working on the Tagging Tool, "public" was in a group with: lesbian, dirty, wet, dom, sub.

There's multiple tags among those I might put on a fitting profile image, especially wet, dom, and probably sub.
Lesbian is its own kettle of fish, but 'wet' has two uses outside of being a fixation tag (and it used to be just one pre-0.2), 'dom' is similar, 'sub' and 'dirty' have one special use, and had none pre-0.2. Of these, only the 0.2 additions are ever used with profile pictures, unless there's a lack of sex images.

So whatever uses of these tags you may find yourself drawn to, these do not really seem to stem from the original intentions for any of them.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. ::)

Next, you're mutilating my quote on purpose to construct a totally different meaning.
What exactly does the word 'degrading' mean, then? Hard to get the impression of an honest question if it's preceded by what looks like a pejorative and followed by trying to put words into others' mouths:
You're kinda degrading it into an exhibitionism tag. Or at least, I think that's what you want?
In any case, I said 'a little bit'. If it struck a nerve so hard, perhaps there was something to it. :P

I actually was asking for your honest opinion instead of some rhetoric traps.
Well, my opinion was and is that 'public' can stay as it is, but there's no need for it to be an enforced umbrella tag. Indeed, the latter only brings downsides as far as I can see.

Next, I think we have different views regarding what umbrella tags are for.
Umbrella tags serve two purposes: backup and 'pick one at random' tags. I don't really see any great benefit to having beach pictures backed up by town images or similar. And picking a random 'public' picture is also much iffier than pulling out a random 'toy' image.

IMO, this is something far better handled by Goldo adding this tag internally (or not, if some cases seem counterproductive). Adding these umbrella tags manually is only truly useful if you have a toy or public place not in the current tag list. Auto-adding regardless of the situation makes everyone's life harder.

There's MANY images taking place somewhere that's not clearly beach, town, nature.
You seem to think I'm advocating for the abolishment of the 'softcore' public tag. I'm not. I'm against it being so 'umbrella' every 'beach' picture has to walk around with one. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 06:33:34 am by Jman »
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #425 on: April 05, 2021, 04:27:29 pm »

Sorry, I argued more forcefully than was called for. Had a rough week.

To be honest, I still don't really see the problem. It's been handled like that with toy, cumshot, cosplay.
On the other hand, you do have a point that not auto-adding the public tag also has no real downside.

Alright then. I'll remove the auto-adding from town, nature and beach with the next release.
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #426 on: April 05, 2021, 04:49:49 pm »

Had a rough week.
That's fine, can happen to anyone. Although it kicking in on Monday is a bit alarming. :-\

It's been handled like that with toy, cumshot, cosplay.
Didn't some outfits get banned from cosplay at one point? And cumshot is conceptually sorta exclusive with certain sub-tags. That is, 'on-body' and so on don't necessarily have to show the act of cumming itself. Doesn't matter from BK's POV right now, but might in the future or in another game.

Alright then. I'll remove the auto-adding from town, nature and beach with the next release.
Yay!
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #427 on: April 08, 2021, 11:40:01 am »

Don't really want to get dragged into a debate on the subject again, but since I was indirectly quoted...

My thoughts were that 'public' was the tag for the 'public acts' fixation, and therefore I would have preferred to retain the tag's sexual meaning. Nevertheless, I agreed to move towards the general consensus and give way to a larger interpretation of 'public', because I understand it could be useful as a generic tag for other games than BK. So now I must own it.

My opinion on how this could work in the tagging tool (with filters on, since filters off cause no trouble):
- 'beach', 'nature', and 'town' (B/N/T) are commonly used for profile pics, so I would make those tags appear as soon as 'profile' is selected (and possibly rest)
- For sexual pics, you could keep requesting 'public' as a first step before showing the B/N/T tags

Regardless of filtering, 'public' will be added automatically to every B/N/T pic by the game tagging dictionary . This will be useful for sex training, but BK will generally refrain from calling the public tag for softcore pictures. This happens 'under the hood', so to speak.

But should the tagging tool itself add that tag to every B/N/T picture?

Chris12 thinks so, and it's the reason why he used public as the gateway button when filters are on in the first place. Some taggers prefer disabling it in some occasions. None of this matters as far as BK is concerned, since all those pictures will receive the automatic 'public' tag anyway. But it could make a difference to other games using the same girl pack.

We should also consider other instances that can be problematic as well. For instance, mechanically adding 'cumshot' to a 'cum-in-face' picture is a no-brainer that a tagger can easily understand. But adding 'bisexual' to a lesbian pic, or 'fetish' to a footjob pic, is mechanically necessary but can seem confusing to a first-time tagger.

So the question I struggle with is: Is it better to stick with a WYSIWYG approach, or be transparent about all mechanically-added tags so that pack makers will know how BK will read their pictures?

Ultimately this is a decision for Chris12, since he maintains the tagging tool now. But I think whatever we choose, we should be consistent with how we handle other instances of mechanically-added tags.
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #428 on: April 08, 2021, 01:14:18 pm »

mechanically adding 'cumshot' to a 'cum-in-face' picture is a no-brainer
Not if your game (not necessarily BK) makes a distinction between showing the, er, cummer and/or cummee? :)

So the question I struggle with is: Is it better
I'm strongly of the opinion that the tagging tool should be adding tags only when doing so lessens the tagger's burden. If people are forced to 'unclick' a certain tag a lot, that's counterproductive and ought to be avoided if at all possible. And the game itself should also be relatively sparing with that mechanic, because otherwise you're sabotaging the pack makers' work with barely anyone noticing.
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #429 on: April 08, 2021, 07:29:08 pm »

I'm strongly of the opinion that the tagging tool should be adding tags only when doing so lessens the tagger's burden. If people are forced to 'unclick' a certain tag a lot, that's counterproductive and ought to be avoided if at all possible. And the game itself should also be relatively sparing with that mechanic, because otherwise you're sabotaging the pack makers' work with barely anyone noticing.

This is what I call the WYSIWYG approach: only add the few tags that are strictly necessary and let the game work its magic. It has the advantage of ensuring maximum compatibility with future games, since no BK-specific fudge will be happening within the tagging tool.

However, the drawback is that it's hard to be sparing with the mechanically-added tags at the same time. The game will have to add a bunch of tags 'behind the tagger's back', so to speak, in order to make sure fallback pictures are working.

I can live with that; but the tagging tool wasn't really designed with that in mind at first: so I'm pretty sure there could me some major inconsistencies left here and there.

Perhaps we could settle for the following:
  • let the tagging tool add parent tags when they are indisputably linked (such as cumshot+cof or toy+dildo), so much so that no one in their right mind would unclick it
  • let the game handle the more murky cases (such as bisexual+lesbian or fetish+footjob) that might confuse a tagger and that another game may well implement differently

That still leaves us with the question of what to do with 'public+B/N/T' though... It seems to me to be more firmly in the second group territory (but I suspect Chris12 would disagree).
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #430 on: April 09, 2021, 04:08:56 am »

Quote from: Goldo
Regardless of filtering, 'public' will be added automatically to every B/N/T pic by the game tagging dictionary . This will be useful for sex training, but BK will generally refrain from calling the public tag for softcore pictures. This happens 'under the hood', so to speak.

Hmmm. vadi92 and Jman made it sound as if there was some huge problem with profile public pictures. Now I hear that BK auto-adds the public tag even if you remove it, anyway. I'm feeling really cheated right now.

Just for the record, next time someone reports some supposedly huge problem with BK, I'm not gonna believe anyone but Goldo.

Anyway, it's still true that you can auto-add the public tag quite easily - and that's seemingly already being done.

Quote from: Goldo
My opinion on how this could work in the tagging tool (with filters on, since filters off cause no trouble):
- 'beach', 'nature', and 'town' (B/N/T) are commonly used for profile pics, so I would make those tags appear as soon as 'profile' is selected (and possibly rest)
- For sexual pics, you could keep requesting 'public' as a first step before showing the B/N/T tags

I think we need to keep 2 things separate:
*) When should the location tags appear (with tag filtering on)
*) Should public be auto-added for location tags


Regarding when "public" should appear (with tag filtering enabled): If public no longer is the "gatekeeper" for the location tags, I would just use the same rule as "public" itself, which is simply being shown all the time.
I admit that's kinda the easy way out, you could define a set of tags that enable the location tags. (e.g. profile or date) But I don't think it really matters all that much, because the more experienced taggers are probably working without tag filtering, anyway.


The second, more important question, is whether location tags should auto-add "public" (in the tagging tool).

Quote from: Goldo
Perhaps we could settle for the following:

    let the tagging tool add parent tags when they are indisputably linked (such as cumshot+cof or toy+dildo), so much so that no one in their right mind would unclick it
    let the game handle the more murky cases (such as bisexual+lesbian or fetish+footjob) that might confuse a tagger and that another game may well implement differently

As Goldo guessed, I would personally favor the first approach. All of the examples in the second category include main tags, while the first category is optional tags only.

Still, it seems the fact that cumshot and toy are sexual-only makes them different to "public" in many people's minds. I don't see how exactly, but if everyone is favoring the second approach, I can live with it.

So, for now I'd not change my decision and keep my plan to no longer auto-add "public" with the location tags.

Just to make sure, that implies that taggers:
*) Will have to click two buttons if they want to add "public" and "town" to sexual pictures.
*) Or only add "town" to sexual pictures, knowing that the game auto-adds "public", anyway.

Personally, I see that as more problematic than having public on some profile images, but if nobody else minds, I'm fine with it too.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 04:12:35 am by Chris12 »
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #431 on: April 09, 2021, 04:43:12 am »

Now I hear that BK auto-adds the public tag even if you remove it, anyway. I'm feeling really cheated right now.
It was your idea that the game should do its own heavy lifting wrt to tags, wasn't it? Now that it's happening, it's still not enough? :P

vadi92 and Jman made it sound as if there was some huge problem with profile public pictures.

Just for the record, next time someone reports some supposedly huge problem with BK, I'm not gonna believe anyone but Goldo.
Goldo is not a (prominent) tagger, and the whole thing arose from Leortha's comment, did it not?

All of the examples in the second category include main tags, while the first category is optional tags only.
But none of the tags involved are 'dual-purpose', like 'public' now is. I think the job tags are pretty close to how the 'new' 'public' works , and auto-adding jobs was removed from some cases a while ago.

Will have to click two buttons if they want to add "public" and "town" to sexual pictures.
If someone is doing this a lot, they can change their tagger settings. The question is which use case is more common, and we have one pack maker and two 'regulars' who think it's more trouble to remove than to add. I guess we'd need more feedback to settle this properly, but the silence indicates that probably nobody else cares too much.

Or only add "town" to sexual pictures, knowing that the game auto-adds "public", anyway.
The thing with the game auto-adding is that this is easy to undo. Reconverting hundreds of packs that have gone through the tagger is not.

That all being said, I'm not entirely happy with Goldo's decision, either. Something like the attachment is really not 'public' to me, in either sense.
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #432 on: April 09, 2021, 12:25:28 pm »

To be clear, the reason the game will add 'public' to B/N/T pictures is for the sexual use of the tag, not for softcore pictures. This enables beach or nature pics during public acts training, together with custom flavor text as per _neronero's suggestion.

For softcore pictures, a B/L/T location will call for the proper tag, then default to 'profile' like before. I don't want to use 'public' as a fallback for softcore pictures for reasons I have already explained.

This leaves us with the question: 'where will softcore public pictures ever be used'? As far as I'm concerned, I'm inclined to look for specific location pictures for all outside events I can possibly think of. I guess I could use generic 'public' pictures as fallback, but if those include an overwhelming majority of nature and beach pictures, won't just using 'profile' as a fallback picture deliver better results? True, most profile pictures are vertical, but if given a choice between breaking immersion and showing a vertical picture, I'd go for the vertical picture.

[...]

So my current idea is to use game logic to enforce restrictions on the use of 'public' pictures:
- Prevent softcore 'public' pictures from showing during fixation training using a hard-coded exception
- Allow location tags for brothel training but include additional flavor text, as per _neronero's suggestion
- Generally avoiding calling the 'public' tag for softcore pictures, preferring location-specific pictures
- Actually not using 'public' as a fallback tag. Judging by Chris12's data, this would result in more misfires than it's worth, even if we filtered out the sex acts

It does mean that softcore 'public' pictures that do not have a location tag (like Chris12's 'sky' example above) will see very little use, or (to be realistic) probably none at all.
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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #433 on: April 10, 2021, 05:43:01 am »

@Jman: If BK auto-adds the public tag, there can be no difference between "profile town" and "profile public town" (in BK) by very definition. And yet, you guys argued as if having public in the filename broke BK in some way and had to be manually removed.

Both from my perspective and from Goldo's (who decided to auto-add public to all location tags), there's no point in doing that. Anyway, this also means that your point (public can be auto-added anyway to locations) is even more valid, since it is already happening. So as I said, the auto-adding will be removed with the next release.


Anyway, I think all this discussion is caused by an unclear definition of the public tag. Here's a new proposal:

"public" : "She is in a public place, outside, or being watched by onlookers. Can be used for both non-sexual (indicating an outside location) and sexual images (exhibitionism also possible inside a building). Use the location tags instead if one of those applies. Public can be used for ambiguous backgrounds. (e.g. just the sky)"


I think this should be an upgrade consistent with the old definition (i.e. old sexual images tagged public still have the same meaning) while also making clear how the new location concept works. I wrote "use the location tags instead" to let taggers know they are not obligated to click twice. (e.g. town and public)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 05:46:18 am by Chris12 »
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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #434 on: April 10, 2021, 07:28:29 am »

there can be no difference between "profile town" and "profile public town" (in BK) by very definition. And yet, you guys argued as if having public in the filename broke BK in some way and had to be manually removed.
For 'town', I don't mind too much, since 'town' is a public place by definition. But for 'beach' and 'nature', that's indeed what has been bothering me all along. Goldo's solution is the lesser evil from my POV, and not a perfect one. It only works because he intends to sidestep the auto-added tag half of the time.

"public" : "She is in a public place, outside, or being watched by onlookers.
So now 'public' is serving three masters at the same time? :o That has been my major issue with this, and I don't see how using 'public' to mean 'outside' is in any way intuitive or 'WYSIWYG'.
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