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Author Topic: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended  (Read 726662 times)

_neronero

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #330 on: March 02, 2021, 07:37:49 pm »

What about 'big sex anal fondle grope sub swimsuit wet vibrator toy'? :P
I know this might be meant as a joke, but I'll answer it earnestly anyways - you simply have a seperate line (or multiple) for each one, and then you show a maximum of 2-3 of them every time the pic is displayed.

Let's say the main event tag is "anal", the event is anal training. So all other tags are there by happenstance.

The main lines are:
"You push your hard dick inside her tight ass."
"She relaxes a little, and you manage to get inside even though she's extremely tight."

The sub lines could be:
- You glance at her snatch. It's begging for your cock. (sex)
- She looks disturbed by the size of your member. (big)
- You cup her breasts and give them a squeeze. (fondle)
- Her wonderful asscheeks beg for your attention. (grope)
- She moans quietly as she bends to your will. (sub)
- The straps grip into her skin as you tug at her swimwear. (swim)
- The light glistens off her drenched body. (wet)
- You hear a vibrator's cheerful hum. (vibrator)
- She reaches for her toy to heighten the experience. (toy)

The event expanded with dynamic lines would be:
[optional random subline #1] "You push your hard dick inside her tight ass." [optional random subline #2]
"She relaxes a little, and you manage to get inside even though she's extremely tight." [optional random subline #3]

Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #331 on: March 02, 2021, 07:53:16 pm »

Well, the practical issues with this approach (as awesome as it sounds) are:
  • Effort.
  • Tag hierarchy (most pictures with lots of tags do fit some of them far better than others, with no way to tell based just on tags).
  • Space (the event window is already crowded as it is, and I doubt many people carefully read what's happening there anyway).
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #332 on: March 03, 2021, 05:56:24 am »

Regarding variety, I think the general opinion, and Goldo's as well, is already trending towards adding an option to the settings screen. Goldo, it looks to me you already have a general direction you want to explore. If there is something I can assist with, please let me know.

___________________________

Basically, we changed the way to tag lesbian images (to not requiring the bisexual tag anymore), but the game's algorithms have not been adapted.
But I changed that back in the current (unreleased) version, remember? So no need to take that into account.

What exactly do you mean, when you say you changed "that"? Do you mean working on female customers? I think we are talking about different things. (probably)

Here's a screenshot from my latest girlpack:



As you can see, she has two glaring zeroes for "cunnilingus" and "finger". Despite these images existing for finger:

lesbian finger orgasm uncen (00000).webp
lesbian service anal fondle finger (00000).webp
lesbian service finger (00000).jpg
lesbian service kiss finger lactation (00000).webp
lesbian service libido kiss finger handjob panties (00000).webp
service lesbian happy finger (00000).webp

Similarily, there are 7 images for "lesbian cunnilingus".

Keep in mind this girlpack has 1400 images, five times as much as the average. Yet there are zero "bisexual finger" and "bisexual cunnilingus" images. I assume these combinations will be ultra-rare.

I think the current ruleset might tempt people into tagging "bisexual lesbian" again. An example:

I've already been doing this. As long as a man being in the room is conceivable, which is almost 100% of the time, it's fitting and gives the (often top-tier quality) images a better chance to surface in-game.

I'm not saying you cannot tag like this, but it will be impossible for anyone to pick out the "real" lesbian images like this. It is one of the options on the table (Number 4 on my list, going back to tagging "bisexual lesbian" always). I think we had a good reason why we changed the lesbian tag, though. Wasn't it Leortha who suggested this? Or was it me? I only remember that I quite liked the change.

P.S.: It's also conceivable for a woman to be in the room. I assume you don't tag normal sex images "bisexual" for that reason? ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:14:39 am by Chris12 »
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_neronero

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #333 on: March 03, 2021, 10:17:15 am »

I'm not saying you cannot tag like this, but it will be impossible for anyone to pick out the "real" lesbian images like this. It is one of the options on the table (Number 4 on my list, going back to tagging "bisexual lesbian" always). I think we had a good reason why we changed the lesbian tag, though. Wasn't it Leortha who suggested this? Or was it me? I only remember that I quite liked the change.

P.S.: It's also conceivable for a woman to be in the room. I assume you don't tag normal sex images "bisexual" for that reason? ;)
[arguments redacted, moot point]
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 07:04:19 pm by _neronero »
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #334 on: March 03, 2021, 06:40:26 pm »

Basically, we changed the way to tag lesbian images (to not requiring the bisexual tag anymore), but the game's algorithms have not been adapted.
But I changed that back in the current (unreleased) version, remember? So no need to take that into account.

What exactly do you mean, when you say you changed "that"? Do you mean working on female customers? I think we are talking about different things. (probably)

I was referring to this discussion: https://www.henthighschool.com/brothel-king/(wip)(v0-1)girl-creation-tips/msg63558/#msg63558

Quote
Yeah I agree. I think I will go with a combination of changes:

- Add female customers to the game, which will be purely cosmetic (no deep gameplay changes such as separate preferences...)

- Add bisexual as a parent tag for all lesbian pictures, then adding lesbian to 'not_tags' where it wouldn't make sense to show a lesbian picture (I'll have to tread carefully on this one, because there was probably a reason I removed bisexual as a parent tag in the first place - I just don't remember it)

- Add 'lesbian' as an optional argument to the 'get_pic' and 'get_fix_pic' Girl methods, just because setting it by default to 'False' would probably avoid a lot of mismatches. We'll only activate lesbian tags during customer events, lesbian story events, and maybe Gizel training.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 11:42:57 am by Goldo »
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #335 on: March 04, 2021, 04:06:11 am »

Ah, I see. The part you've pointed out in bold had slipped my mind, thanks. So basically, this means "lesbian" will count towards "bisexual" again for the rating, and I'll create a little hack doing the same in the Tagging Tool.


A question, especially to the taggers: Now that female customers indeed are becoming a thing, I think it would make sense to (finally) move "lesbian" from the optional tags to the main tags. I'd probably put it right above "bisexual". Is anyone opposed?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 04:17:27 am by Chris12 »
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #336 on: March 04, 2021, 11:46:33 am »

I think this would create confusion with the 7 'extended sex acts' that can be trained (naked, service, sex, anal, fetish, bisexual, group).

Also, keeping lesbian at a lower level than bisexual would be better to convey that it is a child tag (none of the other sex acts has a parent tag).

I'll let the taggers weigh in, though.
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #337 on: March 04, 2021, 12:08:00 pm »

There's a niche feature I've been thinking about lately (but hesitant to share, there are plenty of other things to work on after all)
But in this discussion it might be interesting to consider:

I'm trying to use the Extras > CG - Girl Packs gallery to hone my tagging craft. This feature is already very useful as-is for playtesting purposes. You are able to identify which images are tagged into an impossible corner and you can correct for it if needed.

Since a "picture frequency" feature is already making its way into game, how complex would it be to give images that aren't "unlocked" yet a higher priority to be displayed (as long as it fits the right criteria ofcourse)?

Another nice addition to this gallery for tagging/playtesting purposes, that could prove equally useful in picture selection: A counter of how many times every image has been pulled.

But like I said... Plenty of other things to focus on; I don't know how much work all this would entail.

So I got this to work, and tied it to a new button in the cheat menu to turn it on/off.

This will be for debugging purposes (there's no accounting for performance issues). Also, keep in mind there will be a slight overcount (because sometimes a picture is picked by the game, but not actually displayed to the player), but it should give you a fair idea of how many time a picture is selected.
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_neronero

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #338 on: March 04, 2021, 01:34:31 pm »

So I got this to work, and tied it to a new button in the cheat menu to turn it on/off.


Also, keeping lesbian at a lower level than bisexual would be better to convey that it is a child tag (none of the other sex acts has a parent tag).
I'm ambivalent. Making it an official child-tag of bisexual could be explained as both a good and a bad thing.

Pro: Usage from now on is very clear cut
(tag: bisexual, not_tag: lesbian) for multiple females attending to a man
(tag: lesbian) for 2 females attending to each other
(tag: bisexual) for a more generic combo of both categories, wherever it may apply

Con: No room for grey area images that are fit for both bisexual (foreplay) as well as lesbian (main course)

If a tag is prominent enough in the game, it deserves to be among the "Main" tags in the score calculation for girl pack ratings.
To me, the left side of the tagging tool's UI ought to be reserved for these "Main" tags only to emphasize their importance (so market/advertise/ceremony/date/party are also dubious there)
With the addition of the image counter, we will have the tools needed to embark on a new adventure: Reconsidering what we think of as "main" tags.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 01:40:59 pm by _neronero »
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Jman

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #339 on: March 04, 2021, 01:47:17 pm »

If a tag is prominent enough in the game, it deserves to be among the "Main" tags in the score calculation for girl pack ratings.
I propose we put 'lesbian' among the minion tags, because an (in-game) lesbian is merely another kind of sex fiend. :P
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Leortha

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #340 on: March 04, 2021, 02:36:22 pm »

I propose we put 'lesbian' among the minion tags, because an (in-game) lesbian is merely another kind of sex fiend. :P

Except to me those are not "minion" tags, they are "farm" tags.  And that is a huge and critical distinction.  The four farm tags greatly change the behavior of other tags.  Lesbian does not do so in any similar way.

Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #341 on: March 04, 2021, 03:23:52 pm »

Also, keeping lesbian at a lower level than bisexual would be better to convey that it is a child tag (none of the other sex acts has a parent tag).
I'm ambivalent. Making it an official child-tag of bisexual could be explained as both a good and a bad thing.

Yeah, I want to nudge the tagger, but I don't support making it an official child-tag of bisexual in the tagging tool (if only because adding 'bisexual lesbian' to every filename will prove tedious when 'lesbian' would suffice). So I think it belongs lower in the tag hierarchy (at least in the context of BK, the game), without needing to be made a child tag in the tagging tool.
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Chris12

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #342 on: March 05, 2021, 02:37:48 am »

A few thoughts about "lesbian":

  • I'm talking purely about the Tagging Tool. I'm not saying you have to implement "lesbian" as a new sexact, on the same level as e.g. "group".
  • From a tagging perspective, "lesbian" is very similar to "bisexual" and "group", as shown by _neronero's table.
  • As far as the filename (tag ordering) is concerned, it already works like that. Filename is "lesbian sex" - and not "sex lesbian". Or "bisexual lesbian service" instead of "bisexual service lesbian". This puts all lesbian images in one block in the file system, which I think is useful.  But that also makes lesbian (an optional tag) more important than sex, a main tag, which is a little inconsistent.
  • Regarding rating calculation, the lesbian tag will count towards "bisexual" in any case. Basically, I might change the column title in the rating table (the one in my screenshot) from bisexual to les/bis.
    The rating is not something decided by me, but by BK and Goldo. My goal is to keep the rating in sync with BK's. (Right now, as shown by GH20, it is not.) The decision to game-internally tag "lesbian" as "bisexual" is not one made by me, but one I understand and fully support.
  • If you want to give taggers a little nudge, I think moving the button to the left (basically the only thing I'm suggesting) would be the best (only?) way to indeed give them a little nudge. I'm open for alternative suggestions to achieve that, though.
  • So basically, I just think we could move the button from the left to the right, that's the only thing I'm asking.
  • I don't have a super-strong opinion about this. I'm fine with keeping things as is. To some extent, this is just the gut-feeling I get when I look for or click the "lesbian" button during tagging (which is pretty often)


Regarding main tags, my view is a little different from _neronero's. I kinda think most images should have at least one main tag. Optional tags are for classifying images in more detail.
From that perspective, I would agree that "party" and maybe "market" could be moved. But I have lots of images tagged only "advertise", "ceremony" or "date".
I'm not saying that's a hard rule, though. More like my general approach.

There's one more issue here, though. I've kinda run out of space. The "frequency" tags added 3 new tags in one fell swoop. Basically, the three columns on the right-hand side are completely filled up.
My top candidates for removal are "Nun" and "Futanari" right now. The latter doesn't really mesh well with the tagging system (lesbian futanari sex - you cannot even tell if the girlpack girl is the one with the dick). "nun" is pretty rare and "ceremony" is probably enough to classify them.
But that's yet another discussion, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 03:07:10 am by Chris12 »
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Goldo

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #343 on: March 05, 2021, 11:18:56 am »

Yeah, I think regardless of UI problems, the capacity of the human brain to process that many tags on each picture without burning out is probably the main limiting factor. In my previous version of the tagging tool there were only two right-hand columns, and I already felt that was testing.

As for the 'lesbian' thing: I don't feel too strongly about the positioning of the lesbian button, I just want people not to confuse it with one the main sex acts. But there are a number of ways to achieve that.



Here's a thought:

If we want to make it easier on pack makers, perhaps we should try and reflect on the tagging process and split it in 2 or 3 steps that could have their own UI menu. For instance, here is how one could go about tagging a girl pack:
Quote
Step 1: Browse through all pictures, only picking main tags and basic contextual information (such as location, costume...). This could be pretty quick and straightforward.
Step 2: Browse through all pictures a second time, this time adding all the fixation tags. Probably the most time consuming
Step 3: Browse through all pictures a final time, adding all 'meta' optional tags, such as frequency

I haven't tagged many girl packs so I'm not sure how practical this would be. I did tend to split between step 1 and 2 when I did, though (step 3 wasn't a thing).

The advantages of following such a process would be that a/ It would be less overwhelming for new pack makers and b/ you could split the UI in three separate tabs or something, avoiding clutter. There could be an advanced mode where all options are available as now, for people who are comfortable with the current system.

Anyway, the tagging tool is Chris12's now it's his to do with as he likes. :)
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_neronero

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Re: Tagging Tool 2.8 + TagSet Extended
« Reply #344 on: March 05, 2021, 12:27:58 pm »

If we want to make it easier on pack makers, perhaps we should try and reflect on the tagging process and split it in 2 or 3 steps that could have their own UI menu.
This could be pretty easy to implement with different TagSets (Core Step 1: Main, Core Step 2: Fixations, Core Step 3: Optional)

A list of built-in warning signals that flags peculiar tagging practices could be interesting. Some warnings would be more urgent than others.
- Your main tags score is XX% with X.X pictures per existing tag. [Insert compliment or admonishment here].
- Your optional tags score is XX% with X.X pictures per existing tag. [Insert compliment or admonishment here].
- There are not enough [main tag] pictures
- There are not enough [job/portrait/profile] + [naked] pictures
- There are not enough [beach] pictures
- There are not enough [...] pictures
- You have incorrectly combined [farm] tag with [fixation] tag(s)
- The combination of [...] tag with [...] tag(s) is very unusual
- Less than X% of images use the optional tags [sad/neutral/happy/libido]
- X [profile/portrait] images have incorrect dimensions
- X Images have a very low / very high resolution
- Your average amount of tags per picture is alarmingly low/high
- No _BK.ini file has been found in the girl's directory
- Your _BK.ini file contains the following errors: [...]
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