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Author Topic: Girl packs  (Read 1412125 times)

Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1515 on: March 24, 2021, 11:03:25 pm »

Name: Atalanta

The google doc shows an old pack from Fate for a character named Atalante (ending with an "e" instead of an "A").  Is this the same character?  Seems likely.  If so, which is the correct spelling for her name?
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Smaug

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1516 on: March 24, 2021, 11:08:27 pm »

Faith/Grand Order wiki says it's:
Quote
Atalanta (アタランテ, Atarante)

So I guess the old pack name is a bastardization between the western name (of the Greek heroine) and the phonetic translation.
All the booru's also have him under atalanta so I guess it's a typo?
My pack is based on the old one with updated/replaced/photoshopped pics, I also tried to keep the alternate art pics to a minimum.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 11:14:19 pm by Smaug »
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1517 on: March 24, 2021, 11:19:08 pm »

Ok.  I fixed the old listing in the google doc.
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1518 on: March 24, 2021, 11:25:57 pm »

I'll also note that I have it on the agenda to review your previous pack, since you asked for such.  You can look through my post history here and on F95 for previous reviews.  I tend to dissect packs into little bitty bits when I do them, but every point I make is made with the intention of it being constructive criticism, designed to catch problematic issues with naming early in a pack maker's career, hopefully leading to better pack making skills.  We can always use new, skilled packmakers, and I'm well aware that a lot of the "rules" for how to use the various tags are as clear as mud.

You also mentioned having a lot of furry packs that you have made.  As a general thing, new packs are always a good thing.  So I expect few people would suggest you hold onto them for only your own use. :) I will suggest though that you hold them until I can do the review of the one pack.  That'll let you see how many issues there are and decide whether you want to make final passes through them fixing problems that they may have.
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1519 on: March 24, 2021, 11:30:48 pm »

Edit: Maybe the comments section needs a 'catgirl' entry? _neronero?

One issue that this discussion has made clear is that there are two distinct categories of catgirl characters.  More-furry and less-furry.  And IMHO both absolutely qualify as catgirls.  And IMHO both technically qualify for the Furry tag.  Not sure what tag(s) would work well to distinguish them.
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Jman

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1520 on: March 24, 2021, 11:37:03 pm »

"Furry catgirl" and just "catgirl"? I've also seen the more animalistic variety called 'felid' in certain places.
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Smaug

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1521 on: March 24, 2021, 11:42:36 pm »

I'll also note that I have it on the agenda to review your previous pack, since you asked for such.

That's really cool of you, I promise to update the pack if you do :D
I have a couple packs of random furry OC's with a lot of art (the owners must be Saudi princes to be able to commission that much art I swear).

I do have some probably non-kosher house rules with my packs:
1. not tagging of libido variations of pics (reduces pic variety too much and in vanilla game libido rises really fast).
2. not using naked portrait variation (i crop portrait above neck so there is no difference).
3. getting very lax with job pic tagging if there are no suitable pics to have at least some variation.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 11:49:51 pm by Smaug »
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1522 on: March 25, 2021, 05:28:23 am »

Ok.  Starting Smaug's pack review.  As a general point, I cover each issue once.  Often with these reviews the same issues crop up again and again, but I do not point them out again after the first time.

1) beast naked service sex oral cumshot in-mouth inside (00000).webp - If either Beast or Monster are used, nothing outside of the seven tags that are farm acts will be used.  Specifically all the fixation/phobia tags become pointless.  The reason for this is to limit bestiality and tentacle post to only the farm setting, and not have it show up in things like phobia removal.

2) big beast monster naked sex dirty piledriver (00000).webp and beast naked sex fetish dirty piledriver bondage (00000).webp are the same pic.

3) big naked service sex masturbate cumshot inside (00000).webp - Not sure how Masturbate applies here.

4) bisexual (00000).webp - Bisexual is generally a modifier to the four core sex act tags.  It really does not mean much by itself.

5) cumshot on-face (00000).webp - I don't see the cumshot in this pic.

6) fetish obedience bondage (00000).webp - The Obedience tag is used in the game only for obedience training, which specifically has the MC forcing the girl to help clean up the brothel.  So this tag is best used in pics that have her cleaning, using a broom, etc.   In the absence of such a pic I often use maid pics as substitute.  And this pack has a number of maid tagged pics.

7) fetish obedience sub bondage (00000).webp - Bondage and Sub can be on the same pic, but this is not really it.  A collar and leash is Sub, but not really Bondage.  So without some sort of restraint, this one is not really a bondage pic IMHO.

8 ) geisha naked sex (00000).webp - I always catch people on the Naked tag.  I tend to call it the single most complicated tag in the game.  In this specific case, if any of the four core sex act tags are present, then Naked is assumed by the game, and the tag itself is unneeded.  It does not hurt anything with it's presence, but it is meaningless.

9) geisha naked sex (00000).webp - Same pic as last one.  Not so much something incorrect, but an FYI.  If you combine a job tag (Geisha) with a sex act tag (Sex), then in respect to the job the pic will be limited to appearing in the rare job events that occur for that job, or when working job/whoring combo shifts.  Just wanted you to be aware that the pic will never appear in normal, non-sexual, job work.

10) geisha rest naked service sex anal (00000).webp - Huh?  How do the three sex act tags apply to this pic?

To be continued...
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1523 on: March 25, 2021, 05:59:04 am »

Continuing the review...

11) group (00000).webp - Like Bisexual, Group functions as a modifier to the four core sex act tags, and really does not mean much on it's own.

12) libido (00000).webp - Libido is a modifier tag.  It modifies a lot of other tags to say to only use the pic when libido is high enough.  I know you commented about not liking to use it like that, but it's basically meaningless by itself.  This pic, and the others similarly tagged, will never be used by the game.

13)   monster (00001).webp - This one gets complicated.

First there are the four farm tags.  Monster, Beast, Big and Machine.  The presence of one of these tags is what makes a pic a Farm pic.

Then there are the seven Farm Act tags.  That includes the normal four sex act tags, plus Naked, Bisexual, and Group.  These are the acts that can be trained on the farm.

Normally, pics with just a Farm tag but no Farm Act tag are not useful.  The only thing that they are good for is as fallback for if any of the Farm Acts are missing for a given Farm tag.  In the case of this pack you are missing several acts, so these would see use in that case.

But this specific pic would be good with the Bisexual tag, thus covering one of the current holes for Monster Farm Acts.   The next pic after it would be similarly good for Bisexual.

14) naked anal (00000).webp - I don't see Anal in here, and remember that Naked is pointless in the presence of the four core sex acts.  So even if there was anal activity here, the Naked tag would be moot.

15) naked bisexual fetish lesbian spanking (00000).webp - Your choice, ultimately, but some users consider monochrome images like this to be highly immersion breaking.

16) naked bisexual service sex anal public (00000).webp - My comment here focuses mainly on the girl on the right.  IMHO, in this pic at least, she crosses the line into loli.  Keep in mind, I make loli packs, so loli pics by themselves are not an issue for me.  But when making packs I always keep in mind closely whether or not the specific pack is going to be labeled a loli pack.  Because the whole issue is very sensitive to some people, it's really not a good thing IMHO to have random pics that cross over the line into being loli mixed into a non-loli pack.

17) naked group sex doggy (00000).webp - Cowgirl, not Doggy.

18) naked service fetish toy dildo sub oral bondage gag (00000).webp - If you are using the latest version of the tagging tool you should see a newish tag, Cunnilingus.  When the male is eating out the female, this is the appropriate tag now, not Oral. 

19) naked service finger masturbate (00000).webp - Finger is for when someone else is touching her.  In this pic she is doing it to herself.  (And you have the appropriate tag for that, Masturbate.)

20) naked service sex anal grope (00000).webp - sex?  Anal?  Grope?

To be continued...
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1524 on: March 25, 2021, 06:14:52 am »

Continued....

21) naked service sex masturbate (00000).webp - Masturbate?

22) profile (00000).webp - To avoid causing layout issues in some cases, for Portrait and Profile pics try to avoid using "landscape" style pics.  I.e., try to avoid pics that are wider than they are tall.

23) rimming (00000).webp - Not rimming.

24) service masturbate (00003).webp - Would be better as Finger, not Masturbate.

Lots of pics that have, for no apparent reason, tags like Sex, Anal, or Masturbate.  Lots of uses of Naked with sex act tags.
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Smaug

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1525 on: March 25, 2021, 08:34:57 pm »

This is great, I did not really expect that level of dissection.

1) beast naked service sex oral cumshot in-mouth inside (00000).webp - If either Beast or Monster are used, nothing outside of the seven tags that are farm acts will be used.  Specifically all the fixation/phobia tags become pointless.  The reason for this is to limit bestiality and tentacle post to only the farm setting, and not have it show up in things like phobia removal.
I thought bonanza had some kind of extended farm tag support? If the extra don't get used in 0.2 then it seems like having these is fine for future compatibility.

Quote
7) fetish obedience sub bondage (00000).webp - Bondage and Sub can be on the same pic, but this is not really it.  A collar and leash is Sub, but not really Bondage.  So without some sort of restraint, this one is not really a bondage pic IMHO.
I kinda like using collar & leash pics to bolster Fetish category, probably not needed with this pack though.

Quote
9) geisha naked sex (00000).webp - Same pic as last one.  Not so much something incorrect, but an FYI.  If you combine a job tag (Geisha) with a sex act tag (Sex), then in respect to the job the pic will be limited to appearing in the rare job events that occur for that job, or when working job/whoring combo shifts.  Just wanted you to be aware that the pic will never appear in normal, non-sexual, job work.
Does it appear on normal prostitution? I think that makes or breaks whether to accommodate the rare work/whore thing.

Quote
12) libido (00000).webp - Libido is a modifier tag.  It modifies a lot of other tags to say to only use the pic when libido is high enough.  I know you commented about not liking to use it like that, but it's basically meaningless by itself.  This pic, and the others similarly tagged, will never be used by the game.
I think this another one of the works in Bonanza™ things. I really really would like 0.2 to also adopt that feature.

Quote
Then there are the seven Farm Act tags.  That includes the normal four sex act tags, plus Naked, Bisexual, and Group.  These are the acts that can be trained on the farm.
This is good info, I had no idea about bisexual/group on farm pictures (I guess because there is not a huge gameplay incentive to mess with the farm).

Quote
20) naked service sex anal grope (00000).webp - sex?  Anal?  Grope?
Quote
Lots of pics that have, for no apparent reason, tags like Sex, Anal, or Masturbate.
Any idea what you would suggest with these kinds of pics where she is presenting but there is no sex happening? In my opinion these kinds of pics are good for padding out sex acts due to ambiguity.


I updated the pack fixing the blatant mistakes and probably some of the mis-tagging stuff. This probably puts a spanner for me uploading my older packs as these use a similar flawed tagging style.
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1526 on: March 25, 2021, 09:45:26 pm »

I kinda like using collar & leash pics to bolster Fetish category, probably not needed with this pack though.
Flag them as Sub, and you are good to go for also flagging Fetish.  Sub and Dom and 100% under the umbrella of Fetish.  The issue is not them being under Fetish, but strictly about them being under Bondage.


Quote
Does it appear on normal prostitution? I think that makes or breaks whether to accommodate the rare work/whore thing.
It should.

Quote
I think this another one of the works in Bonanza™ things. I really really would like 0.2 to also adopt that feature.
Libido used to work quite differently.  Maybe Bonanza still uses it in the older way.  It was changed a while back.



Quote
Any idea what you would suggest with these kinds of pics where she is presenting but there is no sex happening? In my opinion these kinds of pics are good for padding out sex acts due to ambiguity.
That assumes that the tag needs padding.  IMHO sex rarely does.  It's one of the more common things depicted in R34.  Anal is a bit rarer, but you can usually find at least a few ambiguous doggy-style pics to give the anal tag to in even the leanest cases.

As for padding in general, I'm very much a believer in tagging WYSIWAG.  That said, I know of at least one other pack maker who has criticized me several times for padding too much on job pics  (exactly the thing you mentioned in another post that you do with them, I'm guilty of as well.)

As for what to tag these as, I mostly use them for either Naked Profile (or Naked XXXX depending on what else is reasonable) or for Service.  Putting on a "private show" for a customer would definitely fit under the Service tag. 
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Smaug

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1527 on: March 25, 2021, 10:41:43 pm »

Quote
Libido used to work quite differently.  Maybe Bonanza still uses it in the older way.  It was changed a while back.
Wonder why that changed, I would think that having more game actions with unique pictures is better?

Quote
As for what to tag these as, I mostly use them for either Naked Profile (or Naked XXXX depending on what else is reasonable) or for Service.  Putting on a "private show" for a customer would definitely fit under the Service tag.
Thanks, service seems like the best bet. I think naked profile should not contain too much of a "pre-sex" feeling pics (but that's my dumb preference).

I guess I kind of a WYSISTMLTA (What You See Is Something That May Lead To Action) style tagger haha.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 11:44:03 pm by Smaug »
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Chris12

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1528 on: March 26, 2021, 05:01:47 am »

Hey Smaug! Thanks for your girlpack, she's pretty hot. :) I'd like join the discussion for a bit.


Regarding collar & leash, there's a "collar" tag among the extended tags. As other extended tags, "collar" is not used by BK (yet?), but it won't hurt to put the tag on images, either. The first extended tags are being adopted by Goldo (e.g. beach or advertise).

There's also a "tempt" tag which may be what you're looking for the "presenting herself" kind of images. Depending on the circumstances, I usually file those images under "service", "dancer" or "advertise".


I think there are cases where sexact+naked can make sense, even inside BK. "Naked" is also something a training in BK and as such has fixations. And some images may fit fixation training for both "naked" and some sexact. So I think e.g. for "naked service masturbate" in your Atlanta pack the naked tag is not pointless.

In general, you won't break anything by putting the naked tag on a sexact image. But since a girl is usually naked on these, anyway, the convention is that you don't have to put it on every single one of them. As Leortha said, Naked is probably the most comlicated tag in the game, since it fits all kinds of different needs. When in doubt, I often put the naked tag on an image, even if it may not be necessary, since considering all the special cases takes longer (at least for me) than just putting the tag on an image.


Finally, you probably should compress your girlpacks before you release them. There's a number of tools for that, one written by me available in the thread Tool for WebP Conversion. It's really small (~300kB) and you only have to extract it to some directory, no need for a real installation. The tool basically converts all images in a folder to WebP and saves them in a new sub-folder. Using it, I could decrease the size of your Atlanta pack to 32MB with a single click. (compared to the original 344MB)

This makes it faster for you to upload your pack, users to download your pack and BK to load the images.

There's more professional tools available, no doubt about that, but I think my tool is a good starting point. It also makes sure that images really get smaller. Some JPG files with high compression actually get bigger when you convert them to WebP. In that case, my tool simply copies the original JPG file. It's an edge case, admittedly. (e.g. only 2 JPG images in your Atlanta pack "survived")
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 05:07:14 am by Chris12 »
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Leortha

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Re: Girl packs
« Reply #1529 on: March 26, 2021, 01:06:54 pm »

I think there are cases where sexact+naked can make sense, even inside BK. "Naked" is also something a training in BK and as such has fixations. And some images may fit fixation training for both "naked" and some sexact. So I think e.g. for "naked service masturbate" in your Atlanta pack the naked tag is not pointless.

Not sure how this makes sense beyond the fact that it does no harm.  The issue is that the game already assumes Naked with the existence of the sex act tag.  So "naked service masturbate" and "service masturbate" are treated exactly the same by the game.  In such a case the presence of the Naked tag adds absolutely nothing to the situation.
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