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Author Topic: Gameplay and design discussion  (Read 320489 times)

Chris12

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #780 on: February 17, 2021, 07:31:43 am »

I think if you're looking for a quick fix, one of these two:
*) Randomly pick between checking for group and bisexual first every time. While easy and fair on paper, it also makes the whole thing quite unpredictable because of RNG
*) Randomly pick between checking for group and bisexual every time, using weights if the girl has a chance-increasing perk. This way a girl with 'Refined Taste', for instance, would see more bisexual action unless both perks are active

Note. I see no problems with RNG. BK relies heavily on RNG, and it evens out out quickly. And it's not like the current choice does not rely on RNG.


My personal favorite:
*) Add a preference setting tied to furniture for bisexual and group acts, to let the player decide the balance for himself. Sounds like a little too much micro to me, though

I don't mind pulling one slider, once. However, I can see that's quite a lot of work to implement, for a feature not seeing much resonance. I'd probably go with something else, if I were you.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 07:34:02 am by Chris12 »
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #781 on: February 18, 2021, 09:03:44 am »

I see no problems with RNG. BK relies heavily on RNG, and it evens out out quickly. And it's not like the current choice does not rely on RNG.
There's a difference between things being random but mitigable, and getting hit with random stuff you have no control over whatsoever. Your solution is the latter, unfortunately. :(

The current choice is so tilted it's not 'random' where it counts, even if it technically is.

I don't mind pulling one slider, once.
What about the four sliders I proposed: one each for group/bis 'picture trigger chance' and '(probable) satisfaction threshold to proc'? Maybe the last one can be combined, to indicate whether priority goes to 'group' (min satisfaction to be allowed) or 'bisexual' (max satisfaction before group sex getting activated instead).

The advantage I see here is that you don't need an advanced matching algorithm to implement the latter, and the player gets some agency.
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Goldo

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #782 on: February 18, 2021, 12:13:23 pm »

My thoughts:
- Advanced matchmaking algorithm is out of the question. The current matchmaking is complex enough that it could easily crumble under its own weight, I'd rather not add to it

- Having many sliders sounds like a PITA if you're not into micro (I know you guys are), and disproportionate compared to other game mechanics (other sex acts only get one slider...)

- Setting up a brothel-wide slider is a weird solution anyway, since it's more logical that the player wants agency on a girl-by-girl level: some girls will be designed for group sex, other for bisexual sex and some for both

- The easiest for me is to make bisexual and group exclusive and offload the work on the player - or perhaps allow both to be checked but then use the weighted random pick I suggested before

- Nevertheless, I think it would make a lot of sense to add an option in the H preferences tab to 'activate regular pictures during group/bisexual sex' (or possible only for group?). This would solve the original problem Chris12 had, which was not enough picture diversity.
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Chris12

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #783 on: February 19, 2021, 05:04:23 am »

I really like your last idea. I assume that would also be relatively easy to implement. Not sure if there's overlap, but better watch out that the girlpack rating algorithms are not affected.

Ultimately, I still wonder if 75% groupsex isn't a bit too much. (with the perk boosting the chance) How about 50% or 60%? Also, the perk has crazy value for being really low-tier. I think it could be an ultimate.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 05:08:38 am by Chris12 »
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Goldo

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #784 on: February 19, 2021, 10:24:36 am »

I really like your last idea. I assume that would also be relatively easy to implement. Not sure if there's overlap, but better watch out that the girlpack rating algorithms are not affected.

Ultimately, I still wonder if 75% groupsex isn't a bit too much. (with the perk boosting the chance) How about 50% or 60%? Also, the perk has crazy value for being really low-tier. I think it could be an ultimate.

The perk is low-tier, but training group preference high-enough to allow group acts should take a long time (if not, maybe training bonuses are too generous). But indeed, we could lower the proc chance for both bisexual and group a bit (or nerf the perks).

About the picture diversity thing: do you want the option only for group, or for bisexual as well? Should it be two separate buttons?
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #785 on: February 20, 2021, 08:53:56 am »

Having many sliders sounds like a PITA if you're not into micro
An extra slider that you set up at the same time as the other sex act enables and customer matching is not really micro. Macro, if anything.

other sex acts only get one slider
Well, group and bis getting only one dual-purpose slider for the two of them might be fair, then? :D

brothel-wide slider
No big difference, really, I actually did envision it on a girl-by-girl basis but failed to outright say so. Something similar to the 'allowed customer types' setting. Maybe use that exact same piece of the UI, too.

But indeed, we could lower the proc chance
>:(

...or for bisexual as well? Should it be two separate buttons?
The problem is the same for both, and I don't really see why anyone would want to enable 'group variety' and not enable 'bisexual variety' or vice versa. So, one button?
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Chris12

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #786 on: February 20, 2021, 09:47:39 am »

After a night of sleep, that image variety thing does not seem so great anymore. I'm no longer convinced this really makes sense, the dissonance between image and text would often be really big. I recommend not implementing this. It's a lot of work and it's doubtful if it makes things better or worse. I also don't think you could just treat group and bisexual the same, when it comes to this.

I have one question for Jman. Why exactly do you want to have group chance close to 100%? I'd like to understand the pain points, I think I'm missing something.

Quote from: Goldo
The perk is low-tier, but training group preference high-enough to allow group acts should take a long time
True. Nevertheless, you can reach the perk real easy once you unlocked "group", and it provides really strong boosts to pretty much everything there is. Gold, XP, JP, Reputation, you name it. In comparision, "naked bonus" gets +15% and no further bonuses from a tier 3 perk. (which I think applies only to gold. Naked also has to be unlocked, although I admit it's usually easier unlock than group.)
You could make it the ultimate in another tree. I think the Maid tree could use a boost, for example. Or move "Business and Pleasure" to e.g. Maid and you can leave it in the Escort tree, as the new Ult. Just throwing out ideas, though.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 10:03:55 am by Chris12 »
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #787 on: February 20, 2021, 10:56:28 am »

the dissonance between image and text would often be really big
Says you. :P Others may have different ideas, and ultimately people might switch it on towards the endgame just for eye candy.

It's a lot of work
It is? Making some of the 'group' filters optional and adding one button. ???

I also don't think you could just treat group and bisexual the same, when it comes to this.
I'm kinda interested, what's the argument behind this?

Why exactly do you want to have group chance close to 100%?
Control. The girls don't switch the other sex acts on and off randomly according to their tastes, so it makes no sense to me that if a girl is booked for group sex and there are enough willing customers, she just randomly fails to find them.

If there were things that I could control, like level, obedience, preference, libido, etc checks, or some customer-side thing like building an 'orgy room' furniture (which actually existed in Bonanza, but not quite for that purpose), or just not bringing in enough 'group fans', I wouldn't complain. But merely plain random chance rubs me wrong here.
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Chris12

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #788 on: February 21, 2021, 06:52:43 am »

Regarding bisexual, I think the difference is that some images might imply the presence of a man (cumshot), but not of another woman. So it's a little harder to trick yourself into considering a normal sex image as an example for bisexual. Although maybe you are right and that's just me.

Quote from: Jman
Control. (...) But merely plain random chance rubs me wrong here.

Interesting that our reason is almost exactly the same. It's similar for me. Interestingly, we want to go in really different directions, though.

For me, it's other way round. I like to activate different sex-acts, again for more diversity. (It makes absolutely zero sense from a economic POV). BK will then take care to show e.g. "service" and "sex" in somewhat similar amounts.

I also think the only clean solution making both of us happy would be customer preferences and sliders at the brothel level, unlocked by furniture. Just as they already exist for service..fetish. The perk could then be about "talk an unwilling customer into group sex", similar to the other Perk about normal sexacts.

I'll probably try and measure the exact economic effects of bisexual and group again. I think there were quite a few changes since last time I checked. Going by gut feeling, group is still more productive than both vanilla and bisexual, but maybe I'm actually wrong.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 06:57:05 am by Chris12 »
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #789 on: February 21, 2021, 12:04:09 pm »

So it's a little harder to trick yourself into considering a normal sex image as an example for bisexual.
I think the 'trick' here is that these alternative images are not instances of group or bisexual activities. Rather, they represent a moment when the other participants have withdrawn for a moment (resting, shooting themselves up with magic Viagra, rummaging through the drawers for a bigger dildo, etc).

BK will then take care to show e.g. "service" and "sex"
But you can influence these by both enabling/disabling the sex acts (which are more similar to each other than to group), and by using furniture to tweak the customers' tastes.

customer preferences and sliders at the brothel level
Isn't there still lots of randomness involved? I wouldn't mind some randomness, even 50% randomness, if there was a perk (or trait, when the Headhunter comes along) that allowed me to skip the roll and go straight to group sex. Building a girl to be an orgy monster is fun. Never being able to do that isn't. :-\

An I'm definitely looking forward to the results of your group sex tests.


Edit: Replying to the hypnosis comments from the bug thread:
Sensitivity is probably going to produce the best results, but images tagged like that still have a relatively wide range.
Sensitivity has been the hardest to pin down actually, has it not? Leortha's habit of putting another girl in there might actually be counter-productive here...

Libido is also relatively fine, since it's actually used in the game for other purposes.

Obedience... household chores, but you'll probably also gets lots of submissive or even fetish images.
Yeah, but getting a 'sub' picture is better than nothing at all.

In general, I think the whole hypnosis thing has not really found its place in the game yet. I practically never use it.
Hmm, why do you avoid hypnosis? I may again be biased due to Bonanza, where magical training was quite likely to be easier to pull off and used mana instead of gold (so harder to spam in endgame, but doesn't cripple your economy earlier). And it was relatively easy to get 'evil' points for hypnosis, so forcing girls into doing things they didn't like was a quick path to demonhood.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 12:15:20 pm by Jman »
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Goldo

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #790 on: February 22, 2021, 04:49:11 pm »

After a night of sleep, that image variety thing does not seem so great anymore. I'm no longer convinced this really makes sense, the dissonance between image and text would often be really big. I recommend not implementing this. It's a lot of work and it's doubtful if it makes things better or worse. I also don't think you could just treat group and bisexual the same, when it comes to this.

Would that make you sleep better if I told you that by the time you wrote that comment, I had already coded that option in? ^^

Why exactly do you want to have group chance close to 100%?
Control. The girls don't switch the other sex acts on and off randomly according to their tastes, so it makes no sense to me that if a girl is booked for group sex and there are enough willing customers, she just randomly fails to find them.

The random chance represents the fact that a/ not all customers will be willing and b/ not all customers will come at the exact same time: maybe she's already in there with a customer when the next one comes in. But nothing stops you from editing BKsettings.rpy and change the base chance for group to .67, so that you are guaranteed group sex for a girl with the 'On Call' perk.

Regarding bisexual, I think the difference is that some images might imply the presence of a man (cumshot), but not of another woman. So it's a little harder to trick yourself into considering a normal sex image as an example for bisexual. Although maybe you are right and that's just me.

That's not just you: that's why I wasn't sure it would be a good idea for bisexual in the first place. But my current thinking is: provide the option as a separate button, off by default, and if people want to use it, why not let them? Those are bisexual pics, not lesbian: thus showing a male participant is not technically immersion-breaking.

Quote
I'll probably try and measure the exact economic effects of bisexual and group again. I think there were quite a few changes since last time I checked. Going by gut feeling, group is still more productive than both vanilla and bisexual, but maybe I'm actually wrong.

Before you do that, you'll want to change the perform() function in BKfunctions.rpy near line 1405 so that satisfaction penalties again stack for group (which I did in my test version). Also would make sense to disable the 'Tempting Fate' bug somehow (not taking the perk seems the easiest).

Edit: Replying to the hypnosis comments from the bug thread:
Sensitivity has been the hardest to pin down actually, has it not? Leortha's habit of putting another girl in there might actually be counter-productive here...

I should take the blame for that, not Leortha: the original meaning of sensitivity was reserved to sensitivity training at the farm, i.e. lesbian foreplay with Gizel. But it isn't very realistic to hope that many packs would clear the high bar of having a lesbian picture with a pale elf, so changing sensitivity to something broader makes sense.

Quote
In general, I think the whole hypnosis thing has not really found its place in the game yet. I practically never use it.
Hmm, why do you avoid hypnosis? I may again be biased due to Bonanza, where magical training was quite likely to be easier to pull off and used mana instead of gold (so harder to spam in endgame, but doesn't cripple your economy earlier). And it was relatively easy to get 'evil' points for hypnosis, so forcing girls into doing things they didn't like was a quick path to demonhood.

I think some players actually use hypnosis quite a lot, judging from frequent feedback on related bugs.
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #791 on: February 22, 2021, 05:31:54 pm »

The random chance represents the fact that a/ not all customers will be willing
That doesn't stop them from getting girls with 'nonwilling' act(s) for regular sex, now does it? :P

b/ not all customers will come at the exact same time: maybe she's already in there with a customer when the next one comes in.
That can also be extended back to normal sex. I'm sure you don't want a nightly timetable in the game.

If you're dead-set on using random disables to balance group sex, at least add a message that the girl failed to find enough customers for the session. Otherwise, people turn on group sex and think it's working all the time, even if the number of customers varies from two to three; and only when they take a closer look will they see that nope, sometimes there's no group sex at all. :(

But nothing stops you from editing BKsettings.rpy and change the base chance for group to .67
My ambitious self and a lack of time stop me. Because if I do that, then I also want to change some other value, and extend a function, and then I recall that Bonanza already all kinds of things set up specifically for me, and Bonanza is so broken I can't bring myself to do all the work to fix it...

Maybe other people don't have this "modder's disease" and can just change a single number. :-\
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Goldo

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #792 on: February 22, 2021, 07:13:50 pm »

But that's why I put all the easily edited variables in BKsettings.rpy so that anyone can easily change them... There's not even a single function in there so you won't have any temptation to change them, I promise!

I agree with you that the group chance is not communicated to the player as of now, which is an oversight. I think the way to go would be to make that mechanic transparent, but not necessarily have it proc 100% of the time (if only for balance purposes).
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Chris12

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #793 on: February 23, 2021, 04:39:48 am »

For the record - I am indeed fine with editing a number in BKsettings.rpy. I could even imagine adding a BK_my_overrides.rpy and overwritting the variable with a new value in a init python block with a higher number than the original one. (Meaning my change would even survive if Goldo patches the game)

Thanks for telling me about the changes regarding customer satisfaction. I'll probably just wait for the patch to be released before I start any experiments. I hope I'll be able to reuse my old savegame, at least.

Just for the notice, NOT taking the "group sex likelyhood +50%" perk is semi-impossible in an actual game. The Escort tree is almost mandatory for any girl doing actual sex work. Unless you are indeed planning for a brothel without any sex going on. ;)
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Jman

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Re: Gameplay and design discussion
« Reply #794 on: February 23, 2021, 04:45:01 pm »

Continuing here instead of the bug thread:

you have to search as many as 32 notebooks. Having a name mentioned makes the search irrelevant.
But the way you play the game may be different than mine, so your point might make sense for some.
If you play the game modded like I do (where you can cycle between girls without closing the notebook, and the latter mentions whether I've already rewarded/punished her), looking at the notebook isn't as slow or irrelevant. But eliminating the need to look at 20 notebooks is still a good idea.

Plus, you may put the names in separate lines, making the overflow issue disappear.
That's exactly the overflow I'm talking about. I think the report does scroll? But in either case, such a situation will just make the report semi-useless, so I'd prefer if only about the first three rebels were mentioned and the rest you have to find yourself (as punishment for letting so many of them get out of hand :P ).
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